ha i think its a good idea .but dao is the most important decider
support the opinion,its a good idea
That was a really good spot @OPUser, I donāt in principle mind if projects want to delegate a small portion of received funds to voting, IF they state in their proposal that this is what they will be doing.
As @lefterisjp says, it might even be a good thing for project teams who have received funding from Optimism to have some say in the governance, not only does it help decentralize power amongst more different people, but they are going to be teams that weāve already assessed as being well aligned with Optimism. On the other hand, I donāt think an optimal outcome has grant recipients instantly having a multiple times bigger say than the biggest delegates, who are each representing about 12k users.
While Perp have done the right thing and undelegated now the issue has been brought to light, we do probably need to address the issue in a way that doesnāt rely on the honest actions of unknown individuals. From what I understand there is no way to blacklist addresses from SnapShot votes, therefore a harmful governance attack from other recipients in the future seems like a very real possibility if we donāt come up with a solution.
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Yeah Iām on the same page and agree with the reasoning, I donāt think itās necessarily a bad thing that we have protocol participation in token house.
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I fully agree.
For some context: the Velodrome team has done a review of every single proposal for funding submitted up to this point.
(Shoutout primarily to @jackanorak)
We are deeply engaged in Optimismās growth, we are an Optimism native protocol, and have been trusted to a large degree by OP Labs to help fulfill the promise of more users and more liquidity.
It would seem to me (and yes, I am deeply biased) that we are exactly the sort of people that Optimism would WANT to participate in Governance. We happen to have ~3m OP tokens, tokens that were granted to us separate from any governance process. But because of community discomfort about protocolās self-delegating - in any amount - we have zero stake in governance voting & decision making.
To me, this is a missed opportunity. Are there risks here? Yes, teams could act maliciously, teams could self-serve. But these are risks regardless of self-delegation.
Our alternative option is to aggressively campaign for people to shift their delegation to us.
Iām all for including $OP delegation plans in funding proposals, Iām all for implementing a process. But I canāt help but feel like what we witnessed in this thread is a small number of people gate-keeping what is meant to be a decentralized governance process, with no clear positive outcome.
IMO having PERP as partners in governance would have strengthened the Optimism Collective. We lost those voices and votes, and missed an opportunity to have protocol level involvement in governance decisions in the process.
What have we gained?
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Iāll take this a step further:
Whatās preventing the Perp team from capturing a majority of its own granted tokens through liquidity mining and then self-delegating individually? Essentially the same outcome would occur, the Perp team having the same voting influence it wanted, but now weāll never know whoās behind their votepower, and weād lack a delegate with a voice in the forums.
Now consider all the liquidity mining that teams have proposed to date (Iām soon going to propose an updated state of grants), and now there is a huge leak in transparency relative to protocol-owned votepower.
Iād argue that retroactively allowing teams to self-delegate is a vote for transparency in addition to what I hope is a broadly shared belief that projects have a unique perspective to share to the collective and are legitimate stakeholders in this community. Perhaps we simply ask that they create delegate profiles to reflect their intentions.
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No one is saying or even suggesting that a project should not have a say in gov. Gov is open and any can and should participate.
We already have many delegates from different project, even Perp has a delegate representation.
If you or anyone wants to be part of the delegate, they should follow the same approach as others. Create a delegate profile and participate just like others.
I dont see a problem in asking users to delegate their votes to you.
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Interesting.
So thereās a possibility a massive amount of $OP liquidity mining rewards are going to team/initial investor/team controlled entities/VC wallets???
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Yeah, without question ā the analysis of Perpās own liq mining is one such example. In many cases, VCās value add is āweāll provide liquidity on your pool,ā and so on.
Itās not inherently a bad thing, and often itās not preventable, as when a teamās currently supporting the protocol and owns many of the tokens, and the hope is that the incentives will make this less the case.
But this is why you want to see growth in wallets LPing in the course of these incentives, to show youāre not just paying a ton of OP to the 10 DAUs of some project and the dev team over many many months or letting them self-delegate and accrue OP votepower for the next round of incentives.
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As Iāve said in past points - getting users to change delegation is an uphill battle following the initial airdrop / delegation flood.
- It requires users to click buttons + spend gas. Always a bad thing
- I imagine we will not see any significant shift in delegates until another airdrop that requires delegation. If the delegates are the same as last time, we will simply se a further centralization of delegate power.
I know that no one is saying or suggesting that a project should not have a say in governance, governance is open and any one CAN and SHOULD participate - just not with the tokens they currently have. A big ājust notā.
just not with the tokens they currently have
Well it depends how they got the token.
It requires users to click buttons + spend gas. Always a bad thing
I imagine we will not see any significant shift in delegates until another airdrop that requires delegation. If the delegates are the same as last time, we will simply se a further centralization of delegate power.
I am glad you mentioned this as there is a proposal in current voting cycle focusing on fixing this. Also, there has been lot of discussion around solving voters apathy so i expect some changes in season 2 around that too.
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One thing I love about you, @OPUser, is your dedication to the governance process. While we may have disagreed at several times I respect that you continually show up in this forum and try to push forward Optimismās Governance Process.
Iād like to be able to do the same, currently I have 30k OP delegated. Velodrome will gain voting power, and weāll do so without ruffling feathers.
I do think any future grant should:
Allow some % of Protocol Granted OP to be self-delegated to ensure Protocol participation in governance, say 25%
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Hey @gabagool, thank you.
And indeed, we have disagreement on couple of topic but I see that as a positive things as it leads to discussion and open engagement. As long as we are fighting towards a common goal and not with each other, gov will win.
Believe me, like you, I want more delegate and users participation in our gov process but instead of locking 25%, how about this ?
from total voting power available, project can request for max X% of voting power as self-delegate. This percentage can be decided with a proposal. Keeping in mind that, it should not be permanent.
Problem with 25% is that its quite relative, a project asking for 1M OP token and self-delegating 25% will put them in top 10 while another project asking for 300K will put them into top 80-90 range.
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Delegation is never permanent, particularly as these tokens are all being distributed. Over time, they will be re-delegated depending on who holds the particular token
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25% was an example, I think it makes sense to have a cap X% of granted OP.
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As more and more OP tokens are distributed, we should not use ācurrent delegates %ā as a metric, as those delegates received their voting shares when OP circulating supply was much smaller.
Agreed, would love to participate if a proposal comes along regarding this.
Hmmā¦ Itās a complicated problem. I think we need a real method.
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